And what exactly would that be ?

It seems to me that people have never wanted streams of foreigners coming into their neighbourhoods. Some have been born into that world and see it as the norm. Some older people still find it very hard to accept the changes that have taken place.
Back in the sixties when immigration was starting to accelerate, the likes of Griffiths tried to represent his constituents who did not want the problems associated with migrants to effect their area. Harold Wilson, one of the most cynical politicians ever, used the situation for political gain and even used a well known actor to run for the seat. He used the whole "race" issue as a political vehicle while accusing the Tory of the very same. Politics has remained in that mode ever since, using race as a political football when in reality race has nothing to do with it. Only far right idiots,self interest groups, including ethnic minorities and politicians talk about race. The rest of us have either been brainwashed by left wing propaganda or are just concerned by the practical issues that effect the local areas and the country with regard to large amounts of migrants coming here to settle.
There has been no attempt to be honest in this debate as politicians try to secure the White middle England and the ethnic vote.

How is that apartheid ? Many immigrants are white.

I don't know the sense of such a policy or even if UKIP have even really proposed it but people have to draw a distinction between race issues and immigration issues.
For sure a persons culture or religion might make integration difficult or near impossible but that is a seperate issue from numbers and pressure on services.

Edited by TheJudge (16 Mar 2015 2.32pm)

The only ever time that the word apartheid has been used to describe a political system was for describing a colour based system.

It isn't an unreasonable point to make.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

I agree that,for example,being averse to an influx of people of differing ethnicity or alternatively a plain averseness to numbers of immigrants with ethnicity not entering a person's thoughts in any way as in your expressed case, does not necessarily make someone a racist since,in the former case, ethnicity is based on a number of things other than race and race may not come into differing ethnicity at all.

I also do wonder how many of the people who don't like numbers of immigrants coming to live near them would feel exactly the same if the same numbers of immigrants were arriving but solely from Canada,New Zealand and Australia...

Apartheid,literally meaning "apartness" and the policy of "Separate Development" in South Africa, was of course premised on race in South Africa but in terms of the non-white parts of the community also involved seeking to create separate sub-groups,individual homelands for "separate" ethnic/tribal groups. All in all,people living "apart" with separate and differentiated access to things legally.

So,not that unreasonable to draw a general parallel between any proposed (if proposed) policies of "separate access" to things within the UK for different groups legally here and a policy of separate access to things in South Africa,allowing for the fact that there it was premised primarily on race as opposed to nationality,for which in part read "tribe/ethnic group".

Edited by legaleagle (16 Mar 2015 8.07pm)

And what exactly would that be ?

It seems to me that people have never wanted streams of foreigners coming into their neighbourhoods. Some have been born into that world and see it as the norm. Some older people still find it very hard to accept the changes that have taken place.
Back in the sixties when immigration was starting to accelerate, the likes of Griffiths tried to represent his constituents who did not want the problems associated with migrants to effect their area. Harold Wilson, one of the most cynical politicians ever, used the situation for political gain and even used a well known actor to run for the seat. He used the whole "race" issue as a political vehicle while accusing the Tory of the very same. Politics has remained in that mode ever since, using race as a political football when in reality race has nothing to do with it. Only far right idiots,self interest groups, including ethnic minorities and politicians talk about race. The rest of us have either been brainwashed by left wing propaganda or are just concerned by the practical issues that effect the local areas and the country with regard to large amounts of migrants coming here to settle.
There has been no attempt to be honest in this debate as politicians try to secure the White middle England and the ethnic vote.

........................................................................................................

What I do not suggest are the following:

1.That many people do not genuinely feel immigration has been/is excessive.

2. That many politicians have not shamelessly chosen and varied their position on issues surrounding "race" and immigration in the past 60 years for cynical political gain,on all parts of the political spectrum.

3.That the popular press over this period has not shamelessly tried to whip up hysteria over such issues,with the popular press having not zero influence in shaping public opinion

4.That there is not a legitimate discussion to be had over population numbers alongside many other issues ,but including overall migration figures in and out, and the benefits economically of, for example EU membership, and benefits of immigrants economically.Provided such discussion in not premised on ethnicity or race.What I object to is the plain aversity to differing ethnicities and the hankering for a "mythic" Britain which in which so much of the debate put forward by those opposing immigration seems to be based.

You ask me who/what I blame for our woes? I don't claim to have easy answers.But,for example, fundamental inadequacies in our education system do not seem to me to stem principally from numbers of immigrants.Problems from our water and sewerage system stem from fundamental underinvestment for over a hundred years.

If we look at housing shortages,they were very much there between the wars, when there was very little immigration.The problems with house price rises don't basically stem from or start with immigration, and rent levels stem primarily from abolition in 1980 of most rent controls coupled with the drive away from state provision of housing.

IMO (and of course not all will agree) and simplistically given I am not writing a 40 page analysis, our problems stem in significant part from increasingly becoming a society of greater income inequality and loss of access for social mobility.The "market" is God with profit to be pocketed often rather than re-invested;though that was our undoing economically from the late 19th century onwards,and the idea of "society" diminished.Blame the less fortunate being the mantra of the day.

The real causes of some of our problems being not immigrants but those elites which benefit from our society increasingly being one of "I'm Alright Jack,sod everyone else", increasing inequality, lack of equality of opportunity,envy of those at the bottom of the heap for the morsels they grab, and an "austerity" which in reality is simply a further vehicle for increasing inequality.But that's just my opinion as an old style Attlee Government social democrat,just an opinion and I have my "hard hat" ready!

Edited by legaleagle (16 Mar 2015 8.47pm)

........................................................................................................

What I do not suggest are the following:

1.That many people do not genuinely feel immigration has been/is excessive.

2. That many politicians have not shamelessly chosen and varied their position on issues surrounding "race" and immigration in the past 60 years for cynical political gain,on all parts of the political spectrum.

3.That the popular press over this period has not shamelessly tried to whip up hysteria over such issues,with the popular press having not zero influence in shaping public opinion

4.That there is not a legitimate discussion to be had over population numbers alongside many other issues ,but including overall migration figures in and out, and the benefits economically of, for example EU membership, and benefits of immigrants economically.Provided such discussion in not premised on ethnicity or race.What I object to is the plain aversity to differing ethnicities and the hankering for a "mythic" Britain which in which so much of the debate put forward by those opposing immigration seems to be based.

You ask me who/what I blame for our woes? I don't claim to have easy answers.But,for example, fundamental inadequacies in our education system do not seem to me to stem principally from numbers of immigrants.Problems from our water and sewerage system stem from fundamental underinvestment for over a hundred years.

If we look at housing shortages,they were very much there between the wars, when there was very little immigration.The problems with house price rises don't basically stem from or start with immigration, and rent levels stem primarily from abolition in 1980 of most rent controls coupled with the drive away from state provision of housing.

IMO (and of course not all will agree) and simplistically given I am not writing a 40 page analysis, our problems stem in significant part from increasingly becoming a society of greater income inequality and loss of access for social mobility.The "market" is God with profit to be pocketed often rather than re-invested;though that was our undoing economically from the late 19th century onwards,and the idea of "society" diminished.Blame the less fortunate being the mantra of the day.

The real causes of some of our problems being not immigrants but those elites which benefit from our society increasingly being one of "I'm Alright Jack,sod everyone else", increasing inequality, lack of equality of opportunity,envy of those at the bottom of the heap for the morsels they grab, and an "austerity" which in reality is simply a further vehicle for increasing inequality.But that's just my opinion as an old style Attlee Government social democrat,just an opinion and I have my "hard hat" ready!

Edited by legaleagle (16 Mar 2015 8.47pm)

Edited by TheJudge (16 Mar 2015 8.59pm)