Undermining Britain and the majority.
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 Matov  01 May 18 11.08pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
The only point I would add is that whilst I fully acknowledge that Trump and Brexit were protest votes, for many of the reasons you describe above, whether these protests are actually of any benefit to the 'protestors' remains to be seen. People want something different, that much is clear, but I worry our search for something different has lead to decisions which ultimately will prove to be to the detriment of the majority. They may succeed in bucking the trend, but to what end? I struggle with this for a variety of reasons. One of the enduring narratives that came from both Brexit and Trumps victory was that the masses were too stupid to know what was good for them. Yet in both the Leave campaign and the Democrats spent vastly more in putting their message forward along with having the overwhelming majority of main stream commentators, be it news anchors or some form of 'pop' star, promoting their message. All accepted conventional political wisdom said that neither Brexit or Trump would triumph and yet both did. But somehow people like me, who voted leave and who would jumped for joy if I could have voted Trump, are meant to be the stupid ones? No. It does not wash. The reality is that people take a look at the world around them and contrast it with what others tell them that world is meant to look like. And when the difference becomes to great to ignore, they actually start thinking for themselves. Because that is what both Brexit and Trump were about. People looking at what their supposed better educated and self-styled political leaders were telling them and decided that enough was enough. That in this modern world, people no longer have to rely on what a very narrow minded group of people wish to tell them about what is good for them or not. Hence why the Deep State is now so keen on cracking down on people who express opinions not in keeping with their own.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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| .TUX. 01 May 18 11.16pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
I struggle with this for a variety of reasons. One of the enduring narratives that came from both Brexit and Trumps victory was that the masses were too stupid to know what was good for them. Yet in both the Leave campaign and the Democrats spent vastly more in putting their message forward along with having the overwhelming majority of main stream commentators, be it news anchors or some form of 'pop' star, promoting their message. All accepted conventional political wisdom said that neither Brexit or Trump would triumph and yet both did. But somehow people like me, who voted leave and who would jumped for joy if I could have voted Trump, are meant to be the stupid ones? No. It does not wash. The reality is that people take a look at the world around them and contrast it with what others tell them that world is meant to look like. And when the difference becomes to great to ignore, they actually start thinking for themselves. Because that is what both Brexit and Trump were about. People looking at what their supposed better educated and self-styled political leaders were telling them and decided that enough was enough. That in this modern world, people no longer have to rely on what a very narrow minded group of people wish to tell them about what is good for them or not. Hence why the Deep State is now so keen on cracking down on people who express opinions not in keeping with their own. Every bit of this.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 02 May 18 9.54am |
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Originally posted by Matov
I struggle with this for a variety of reasons. One of the enduring narratives that came from both Brexit and Trumps victory was that the masses were too stupid to know what was good for them. Yet in both the Leave campaign and the Democrats spent vastly more in putting their message forward along with having the overwhelming majority of main stream commentators, be it news anchors or some form of 'pop' star, promoting their message. All accepted conventional political wisdom said that neither Brexit or Trump would triumph and yet both did. But somehow people like me, who voted leave and who would jumped for joy if I could have voted Trump, are meant to be the stupid ones? No. It does not wash. The reality is that people take a look at the world around them and contrast it with what others tell them that world is meant to look like. And when the difference becomes to great to ignore, they actually start thinking for themselves. Because that is what both Brexit and Trump were about. People looking at what their supposed better educated and self-styled political leaders were telling them and decided that enough was enough. That in this modern world, people no longer have to rely on what a very narrow minded group of people wish to tell them about what is good for them or not. Hence why the Deep State is now so keen on cracking down on people who express opinions not in keeping with their own. As usual, a thoughtful and well written post with which I agree 100%.
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 02 May 18 10.33am |
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Originally posted by Matov
I struggle with this for a variety of reasons. One of the enduring narratives that came from both Brexit and Trumps victory was that the masses were too stupid to know what was good for them. Yet in both the Leave campaign and the Democrats spent vastly more in putting their message forward along with having the overwhelming majority of main stream commentators, be it news anchors or some form of 'pop' star, promoting their message. All accepted conventional political wisdom said that neither Brexit or Trump would triumph and yet both did. But somehow people like me, who voted leave and who would jumped for joy if I could have voted Trump, are meant to be the stupid ones? No. It does not wash. The reality is that people take a look at the world around them and contrast it with what others tell them that world is meant to look like. And when the difference becomes to great to ignore, they actually start thinking for themselves. Because that is what both Brexit and Trump were about. People looking at what their supposed better educated and self-styled political leaders were telling them and decided that enough was enough. That in this modern world, people no longer have to rely on what a very narrow minded group of people wish to tell them about what is good for them or not. Hence why the Deep State is now so keen on cracking down on people who express opinions not in keeping with their own. Again, I agree with most of this, but I have to be clear that I was not suggesting any lack of intelligence in terms of Brexit/Trump voters - only that we ultimately don't know if these 'protest' victories are actually going to satisfy those who voted for them - I am sceptical as to whether they will. The problem with positioning yourself as the alternative is that should you succeed, you need to deliver something satisfactorily different - I don't think either Trump or Brexit will achieve this.
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| steeleye20 Croydon 02 May 18 11.06am |
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Originally posted by Matov
A valid observation but any society, if it wants to function in any form of positive sense, has to have certain core attributes and shared values at its core. We could argue about what those are until the cows come home, and a good time would be had by all but for me the one trope that constantly comes from the left is a disdain for the notion of populism. What the hell is wrong with populism? Surely that is at the heart of what the democratic process actually is? And why would the left in particular be so against it? Edited by Matov (01 May 2018 6.10pm) 'certain core attributes and shared values at its core'. You have not given any, have you. Undermining Britain and the Majority, is a deliberately deceptive thread title inferring that if you do not hold a certain point of view then you are undermining Britain, and that is the view of a 'majority'. You give no evidence of this, brexit and Trump are your pet subjects, not those of a 'majority' but yourself. Thus because we may not agree with brexit or Trump we are somehow 'undermining' Britain. If you want to debate all these things by all means, but you cannot IMO ascribe your personal views to those of a 'majority undermining Britain'. That is utterly false.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 02 May 18 12.34pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
Again, I agree with most of this, but I have to be clear that I was not suggesting any lack of intelligence in terms of Brexit/Trump voters - only that we ultimately don't know if these 'protest' victories are actually going to satisfy those who voted for them - I am sceptical as to whether they will. The problem with positioning yourself as the alternative is that should you succeed, you need to deliver something satisfactorily different - I don't think either Trump or Brexit will achieve this. I don't think any thinking person thought they would. This was about using democracy, such as it is, to give an indication of dissatisfaction by putting a spanner in the works of the so called establishment. It was a first step in the potential, 'civil war' that is to come as puppet politicians ensure mass migration and pander to minority interests to get votes.
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| Lyons550 Shirley 02 May 18 1.06pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
I struggle with this for a variety of reasons. One of the enduring narratives that came from both Brexit and Trumps victory was that the masses were too stupid to know what was good for them. Yet in both the Leave campaign and the Democrats spent vastly more in putting their message forward along with having the overwhelming majority of main stream commentators, be it news anchors or some form of 'pop' star, promoting their message. All accepted conventional political wisdom said that neither Brexit or Trump would triumph and yet both did. But somehow people like me, who voted leave and who would jumped for joy if I could have voted Trump, are meant to be the stupid ones? No. It does not wash. The reality is that people take a look at the world around them and contrast it with what others tell them that world is meant to look like. And when the difference becomes to great to ignore, they actually start thinking for themselves. Because that is what both Brexit and Trump were about. People looking at what their supposed better educated and self-styled political leaders were telling them and decided that enough was enough. That in this modern world, people no longer have to rely on what a very narrow minded group of people wish to tell them about what is good for them or not. Hence why the Deep State is now so keen on cracking down on people who express opinions not in keeping with their own. Very Orwellian...and very very true Edited by Lyons550 (02 May 2018 1.06pm)
The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World |
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 02 May 18 4.57pm |
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Misoneist Across the green and pleasant pastures Behind the evergreen hedgerows Through the drawn curtains Into the darkened rooms Lit by the steady flicker of a dying fluorescent light Pie and mash fingers casting shadows on yellowed keyboards Warriors to the end, defending freedom Noble isolation Clinging to a time that never was Once more for St. George Until the world ends
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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| elgrande bedford 02 May 18 8.44pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
'certain core attributes and shared values at its core'. You have not given any, have you. Undermining Britain and the Majority, is a deliberately deceptive thread title inferring that if you do not hold a certain point of view then you are undermining Britain, and that is the view of a 'majority'. You give no evidence of this, brexit and Trump are your pet subjects, not those of a 'majority' but yourself. Thus because we may not agree with brexit or Trump we are somehow 'undermining' Britain. If you want to debate all these things by all means, but you cannot IMO ascribe your personal views to those of a 'majority undermining Britain'. That is utterly false. But that's your beloved lefts views..the left give an opinion and any one who does not agree is shouted down.
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 02 May 18 10.02pm |
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Originally posted by elgrande
But that's your beloved lefts views..the left give an opinion and any one who does not agree is shouted down. Not sure it is. You're being called out quite fairly on your circumstantial opinion masquerading as fact. And because you appear to not be able to adequately answer the challenge to your statement, you've fallen back on the Left vs. Right by default to try to deflect and bring the discussion down again to an unwinnable, often personal, slanging match. In fairness you're not the only one that does it, on both sides, but a good debate always has less emotive subjectivity and more factual essence at its core. That's when it gets interesting, not 'I speak for the masses I do, and because it's populist, it must be right, so there'. Objectivity with a little dash of opinion and emotion is the path to enlightenment. Or at least good debate. And maybe the odd bit of terrible poetry thrown in every now and then for good measure.
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 02 May 18 10.06pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
Misoneist Across the green and pleasant pastures Behind the evergreen hedgerows Through the drawn curtains Into the darkened rooms Lit by the steady flicker of a dying fluorescent light Pie and mash fingers casting shadows on yellowed keyboards Warriors to the end, defending freedom Noble isolation Clinging to a time that never was Once more for St. George Until the world ends
Which bits never existed just out of interest?
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| Hrolf The Ganger 02 May 18 10.19pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
Not sure it is. You're being called out quite fairly on your circumstantial opinion masquerading as fact. In fairness you're not the only one that does it, on both sides, but a good debate always has less emotive subjectivity and more factual essence at its core. That's when it gets interesting, not 'I speak for the masses I do, and because it's populist, it must be right, so there'. Objectivity with a little dash of opinion and emotion is the path to enlightenment. Or at least good debate. And maybe the odd bit of terrible poetry thrown in every now and then for good measure. So what facts are you enlightening us with? I see none. Opinions are like arseholes you know. What does matter is when minority interests seemingly become more important than the majority purely because their votes are becoming more significant and they have a loud voice. Britain is becoming much the same as the USA in this respect. Stephen Lawrence day for crying out loud. One has to pinch ones's self regularly nowadays.
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