"Subjectivity" is the very essence of refereeing and this has always been the case. "In the opinion of the referee.." and all that.
Goalline technology first introduced the element of 'Fact' and even this has had it's technical failures albeit on rare occasions.

Edited by Willo (11 Dec 2023 12.58pm)

Referees make honest decisions and certainly do NOT go out on the field of play with the intention of favouring one team over the other.
In the PL, the referees undergo a 'Forensic' examination of their performances and do not want to be in the position where they are constantly criticised for their decisions.Referees err from time to time but they are honest misdemeanours made in the heat of battle.

Apropos fouls, as I have already asserted not every foul is worthy of a card and cards are issued for a plethora of reasons not just for robust actions by players.

Finally, clearly the comment about Mark Clattenburg celebrating on the Man Utd coach was made in jest.

When the game was as clean as whistle , not tarnished by massive amounts of money ,
Maybe, But if subjectivity is all a referee or referee system is based on ,then the door is wide open to the sort of abuse so many of us are aware of. Subjectivity does not require ,impartiality or basic fairness. When you consider just the financial implications of every single game, then how can decisions be the subject merely of subjectivity?
In particular , when so many of ,what were once simple decisions ,including handball ,and what even constitutes a foul anymore, have been made the perfect play ground for manipulation because no matter how complicated it’s been made subjectivity becomes an excuse for deciding the outcome of a game. Take Ayew,s first card , years back and not just in my own time most refs said get out of there, little move, get out I’ll book you , you went, and that free kick ,played to the whistle, if it didn’t no infringement anyway, sensible ,fair or what?, What we have now is , Oh look my chance to decide which way this game will go, and that must be the case because I see lads doing an Ayew, every week ,no booking, a tiny bit to obvious I say.
Everyone in the game knows how important Ayew is right now to a Palace performance, Including Refs they know exactly what’s going on throughout the game,
He was definitely the right on to pick on.

Edited by Putitout (11 Dec 2023 1.48pm)

I Tend towards Willo's opinion that there are no intentional Bias or corruption in refs decisions. Afterall, if that were the case, Madely would have blown immediately for the Hughes challenge, and subsequent Penalty.

I do, however, believe there is subconscious bias towards bigger clubs and their perceived 'better' players. something along the lines of 'With the talent available on the pitch this tackle on the halfway line stopped a clear goalscoring chance' or 'he is too good to have meant that' etc, wheras the ref may be predisposed to think that the lesser team's tactics will be one of disruption and try to stop said 'better' players from playing, and in the interest of a free flowing game, goes out to stop that behavior. I'm not sure it's conscious, and if it is, then the refs are so incompetent that they cannot seem to recognise when this is not happening. However, those card stats vs fouls are a pretty damning opposition of this!

VAR in this case I think did the right thing in both cases it was used - I do think the Hughes challenge was a foul - but if you haven't decided after 30 seconds, then stop hammering that nail.

What does irk me a little was why a card such as VVD's should be rescinded after the decision was changed. it's not like anything changed, it was still a shocking challenge.

"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"

Something I have noticed, which might be relevant in the stats from Saturday but also generally when smaller clubs play big clubs, is that opposing players now often seem to collude to bring about a free kick.

It has become common practice for bigger clubs to try and dominate possession in the opponent's half, requiring them to pass the ball very well but also to press very quickly when they lose it, in order to prevent a counterattack.

A lot of the fouls Liverpool gave away were like that - innocuous nudges, pulls and pushes deep in our half of the pitch. Nothing very aggressive or nasty. It stops the play and allows Liverpool to get back into defensive positions, but at the same time, it usually isn't a foul that obviously prevents a counterattack, so no yellow card is issued.

Szoboszlai did a couple of these fouls in the first half and didn't get booked. Ayew, of course, did get booked and it cost us.

Maybe the size of the club is a factor in that, but I also think a key difference is how the 'fouled' player and team go about things.

When Liverpool, Man City and Arsenal players win the ball back, they look to counterattack quickly. They will turn forward, look for a forward pass, and make forward runs, all with great purpose. A foul in that situation is immediately recognisable as affecting the game.

This media thing about us being a fast, counterattacking side is just lazy nonsense. In fact, when we win the ball back our players (and players for other clubs our size) will often be happy to accept a soft free-kick rather than genuinely trying to launch a swift counterattack. When our defenders regain the ball and pass it to a winger or midfielder, our players will often look to shield the ball with their bodies and keep the ball safe rather than to be on the half-turn looking to play forward quickly.

I think that's partly lack of ability, partly lack of pace, but mostly it's because they defend for longer, which is physically and mentally demanding. When the ball gets won back, we are tired, they don't want to risk a counterattack - a soft free kick suits both sides.

I think that is what cost Ayew. Whereas Szoboszlai was fouling players who had no intention of trying to play forwards, Ayew fouled one who wanted to.

My disagreement with the referee would be that Ayew made a genuine attempt to play the ball, which Szoboszlai didn't, but there is no doubt that Ayew prevented Elliot from playing the ball forward when he would have otherwise done so.

I will answer you, I did post this very same subject y/day, "Any club that receives 5 cautions or more in a single match will be fined due to Failing To Control Their Players" This applies across the whole of football in England.

I'm a blind man, i'm a blind man, now my room is cold,
When a blind man cries, Lord, he feels it from his soul.
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